Dogmatic

Anthony Dod Mantle is the DoP of dogme films such as Festen, Mifune and julien donkey-boy, and recently won an European Film Award for his work on Dogville and 28 Days Later. Perry Ogden caught up with him fresh from the set of Danny Boyle's Millions and Thomas Vinterberg's Dear Wendy. This is the full version of an interview which appeared in a slightly shorter form in Film Ireland 96.

Perry Ogden: You started out as a photographer. How did that come about? Did you go to college?

Anthony Dod Mantle: Yeah, I went to college, I am a real college boy, but I didn't even touch photography or images of any kind until I was about twenty-five. My mother was a very artistic person, so tried to drown me in thinners, canvases and Daumier. And piano teaching, but I just basically kicked a ball around. Played football, tennis and golf until I was old enough to make pizzas and travel abroad.

Where did you go?

France. I travelled with a girlfriend I met in college and we just wanted to learn French and become fluent. It was kind of an indirect exit from England to try and find myself but also a love of French literature and language that I wanted to perfect.

So how did you end up in Denmark?

I went later with another girlfriend, who was Danish, and I travelled on a boat to Denmark not knowing where it was. I spent three months there, learnt a bit of Danish, got to know her family. We were out one day trying to furnish our flat as her parents were coming for dinner the following evening. We went looking for saucepans, plates, any sensible kitchen utensils and we ended up at a jumble sale where I saw a flight case on the top of a shelf. I was very attracted to this case, took it down from the shelf and opened it up to find a Canon FTB camera with three Tamron lenses, a double extender and a flash, and I thought, "my God, I would love to do that." So my girlfriend took all the money out of her pocket and said, "drop the saucepans, you have found something you want to do." And within three months we were in India and I was using that camera.

Why India?

I went to retrace my grandparents' colonial life - they had been tea planters in Assam - and to get away from England. To really extricate myself from a comfortable envelope of middle class life. And I started photographing in India because I couldn't believe what I was surrounded by - spirituality, colours, life. It was an extraordinary gateway to image making. I took photograph after photograph and came back to Denmark with seven or eight thousand exposures which I went into the darkroom with. Then I applied for a BA course at the London College of Printing even though they had closed the entrance. I'm really not the kind of person who barges their way in but I went to London and managed to get a place.

Is that where your interest in the moving image developed?

Yeah, I was beginning to do the odd picture for Time Out and getting offered other jobs but I had been accepted at the Royal College for an MA course and I felt that I should probably extricate myself from an elitist artist environment which is what the Royal College was. So I forced myself into the more industrial environment of the Danish National Film School in Copenhagen, because I had this slight connection with Denmark and they have an excellent film school there - especially for cinematographers. I did not expect to get in, as they only took five people every second year, but I did.

Did you speak the language then?

I was stammering, stuttering - and I was a bit nervous. I had a very local dialect that they screamed with laughter at in Copenhagen. But I got there and I used the school a lot.

What did you learn there?

It was not a particularly inspiring artistic environment but I needed the schooling. I needed to establish my own self-confidence via that schooling method. And three years at LCP wasn't enough; I needed more. And even after the National film school I didn't fly straight into Director of Photography work, I kind of assisted on one feature and then I started doing documentaries - the first one in Cuba -, working very carefully. And then it happened and I felt confident and now I don't even think about it. It took a long time for me. I didn't start freelancing as a DoP until about 1990.

Did you meet Thomas Vinterburg at the National?

No, he was there four or five years after me. I met him on the street one day. I couldn't resist his smile. He had just had a very good review of his short film. So I stopped and just wound the window down in my Volvo, he knew who I was, and I just said congratulations and he had this big smile and I found it quite provocative. And that was my first exchange with him. And then seven months later I called him about the weather in Thailand. He was in a hotel in Paris, I was in Copenhagen.

And you talked to him about the weather?

Yeah, because I knew he had been in Thailand and I was going to go there. And I called him. We had a good chat. And then six months after that I shot his first feature

That was The Greatest Heroes?

That's right. I had made my first feature, The Terrorist, with a very talented German director, Phillip Gronning. Then my first Danish film with Carsten Rudolph. But The Greatest Heroes was my fourth feature. I was getting into the swing of it. The film wasn't a great success but I loved making it. We became very close, Thomas and I, and we felt very strongly that we would do more and the second one we did which was about two films later was Celebration (Festen) which was a very intense experience for us both - and quite a turning point.

Was it always the plan to shoot Celebration on mini dv?

No, originally Dogme was meant to be 35mm cameras on the shoulder, hand carried, like the Second World War photographers. Producers have distorted that beyond belief to encourage young directors into doing hand held video rubbish. It's appalling some of the stuff. It's so bad. We did try to make Celebration work on film but we couldn't get it to fit the budget. We tried Super 8, which was even more expensive than 35mm, and I stayed away from 16mm because for some reason I felt that was wrong. I tried Hi 8, Super 8 and a mixture of the two. But I ended up with these little dv cameras and felt very strongly about them. The producers did try to encourage me to reconsider and shoot on a heavier, shoulder carried Beta Cam. They slightly panicked, they were concerned it was a bit radical. They were not being stupid about it, just being responsible.

Isn't that what made it though?

I don't know, what do you think? Some say the direction was good. The story was fantastic.

And the casting...

I think that is one of the films where perhaps the acting is allowed to flow with the camera.

If you had shot on 35mm would you have had that flexibility?

Well, that would have been Babette's Feast at ninety miles an hour, it would have been The Dead or Fanny and Alexander. It could have been all of those but it became what it was. And I don't think I would ever re-shoot it. I would love to re-treat it. I would like to visually finish it off for my own DVD. I saw it on a big screen again not so long ago and it really touched me. The texture we achieved there, which was so gentle and soft, and struggling. It's decomposing, but I feel it has a metaphor for the story and at the same time there's something devilish and beautiful about it. And it's up there like a painting, maybe a bad painting. It has another aesthetic. And I think donkey- boy (Harmony Korine's julien donkey-boy) projected does too. I think the DVDs of both Celebration and very much julien donkey-boy let them down. They get hard again and more brutal, they loose their softness.

How did you achieve that texture in julien donkey-boy?

We talked a lot about Xerox copies, Harmony and I, even though it was a Dogme film, we wanted some how to get this kind of Xerox bursting painterly quality. Which seemed to fit this kind of strange American, I wouldn't say provincial, it's not like Gummo - which is a brilliant film - but this sort of Queens/ NY story about this terribly complicated schizophrenic. And being a Dogme film you can't do much about it so I shot on everything but I wanted to marry them all. I wanted to put them through some sort of aesthetic post process where it would become an acceptable visual marriage. We couldn't shoot it in Super 8 so we thought we would transfer it somehow or re-film it on Super 8. We had some ideas about projecting it on a velvet curtain, and re-filming that. We didn't know what we were going to do. But we found this lab in Zurich called Swiss Effects and they had a step printer, so we could transfer it to 16mm and then blow it up to 35mm.

16mm gave it a bit more grain.

Yeah, but 16mm these days doesn't even have an organic grain, you have to push it to smithereens to get any grain and 35mm is almost electronic. It's as if the electronic world of HD and the film world are almost trying to meet.

Did you have a main camera on donkey-boy?

My gut. It was shot from the gut. We looked and looked at each scene and didn't know what we were going to do. We sat there watching and then suddenly it came. It was just like open the cases and it may have been the three chip camera, it may have been the single chip, it may have been the blind people with hidden cameras, it was very....

spontaneous...

Yeah, but also deliberate. It's a tactic. It's both spontaneous and deliberately trying not to repeat yourself, which is in fact an intellectual process.

Harmony talks about the idea of "Mistake-ism".

He does, he talks of that, that was that day. Good on him. "Mistake-ism," the chaos, the order of chaos. (Laughing) The beauty of chaos. He is a man of words, Harmony. He is a terror of words and images.

The film you shot for Danny Boyle, 28 Days Later, has a much crisper quality but was still shot on mini dv, this time with the Canon XL1.

Yes, it's pretty crisp and looks good on DVD.

It must have been hard with so much landscape.

It's all tactics and strategies, you have to know what you want to do in the end before you make the first exposure.

In terms of the lab you are going to use?

Yeah labs and also the process and what you know yourself and what you want to bring to it.

What were the decisions you made?

Well, all electronic formats are difficult. They are not so inspiring. There is not much available light in 28 Days Later, it's controlled and heavily lit and the producer rumours about it being just banged off and lit quickly in available light are all absolute garbage. It was a serious production, small cameras, a cheaper form but we worked very hard - particularly the lighting guys and the designer - to try and achieve something given that mediocre format and mediocre resolution. Available light, exterior light, blue skies, greens, they are nightmares on these formats. So I tried first and foremost in shooting to control the light. And to create contrast. And I did sky plates to bring the skies down and get information. The secret is to get as much information as possible into the post and then get yourself secured time in the post with a competent man.

Who did you do the post with?

With a colour grader called Jean-Clement Soret - a very talented grader at MPC in London. I have also been working with him on Millions.

Do they do the transfers as well?

Yes, they do the transfer to film, so you can nip downstairs to see it, go back up, change it, it's all in-house. And then the final prints are done, in this case I think they were done in either Deluxe or Technicolor... I can't quite remember. It's important as an image maker or director to know the consequences of choosing the format you are choosing. It's always been the same, whether you are black and white or colour or 16mm or 35mm, there are consequences, whether you shoot available light on film, or lit, or two cameras or three cameras. You have to know ultimately what you want to achieve and be very honest with each other so you don't get disappointments or cheat yourself or delude yourself. I am way past self-delusion as far as these formats are concerned, because I know damn well what I am going to get. And if it fits the story, which we believe economically, certainly now, in the case of 28 Days Later, it did, but also artistically, if it fits the story, in that case I go with it.

Danny first approached you to work on two BBC films written by Jim Cartwright - Strumpet and Vacuuming Completely Nude in Paradise that were to be shot on mini dv. After Celebration and donkey-boy weren't you reluctant to work on dv again? A bit fearful of becoming the dv King?

Yeah, he teased me about it. He is a player, Danny, he knows how to twist your arm and he came to visit me in Copenhagen and we spent an afternoon together. I really liked him. And I loved the stories. That made it even harder for me. I love Jim Cartwright as a writer.

Strumpet in particular seemed to be inspired by Gummo and donkey-boy and quite unlike Danny's previous work.

Well he loved julian donkey-boy. I gave him the first assembly of donkey- boy and he loved it. And he loves The Idiots (Lars Von Trier). He brought me in because he didn't know anything about that way of working. He is a very solid worker - he'll work harder than anybody else on the set - and very stubborn. So he is a force, but he is also, not populist but there's something about Danny which I battle with. I don't mean that in an arrogant way but I feel that I am in one world and he is in another and we try to help each other or meet. And Millions was about that. He kept insisting that it was a comedy and I was saying, "I know it's a comedy but it's still visual". And I'm not a visual fascist, I'm pretty actor friendly and I like to see actors develop. So I tried to encourage him to let me go with the camera more but it often ended up on the dolly or legs and not moving. It's also about cutting and the editor (Chris Gill) is a very excitable chap - the guy who cut Strumpet and Vacuuming and 28 Days Later - he is a very nervous gent. Very talented, very musical, but very nervous, very frantic - frenzied even. And I don't think Millions can handle that. I think he is mellowing but I'm a bit fearful.

Were you happy with the way he cut 28 Days Later?

I think in the end, yes, but it was a struggle, I had to go in a lot, I don't leave it, I go back a lot. And I say my piece and I talk about the flow of energy on shooting it, I do talk a lot about that because I think it's important. I think you have to speak your mind. And he does listen to me, Chris, we have a good relationship, I respect him immensely. But I often think the early products from his hands and eyes are very jittery. Sometimes he cuts a scene before I have seen the rushes and I find this, obviously as a photographer, quite provocative. It's a challenge for me and my spirit and my way of working. But Millions is governed by a very well written story by Frank Cotterell Boyce and Danny wants to make it accessible. A kind of Billy Elliot - emotional and accessible. Sometimes we talk quite strongly to each other. But that is obviously our karma. When I work with Thomas he is a great deal more dependent on my vision. And when I work with Lars, and he's one of the greatest visionaries that ever set foot on this hemisphere, he still brings you in and trusts you and listens. Danny is extremely strong, he will always have a suggestion, you will never get lost with him, never get stuck. I could come onto a Danny project late because he will have a vision and he will develop it. I would dread the thought of coming too late onto Thomas's work because there's so much preparation necessary for helping him to decide

Tell me about Dogville? How did you work with Lars?

I was the creative pragmatist. I was on his left shoulder; I was watching him all the time.

You set him up to film a lot of it himself.

Well yeah, I always knew he was going to operate as much as he could himself and that was fine.

He operated (a Sony VX 1000) on much of The Idiots.

Certainly did. Quite appropriate. I would even consider using him as an operator myself (Laughing). I am seriously considering, on my directorial debut - if ever that happens - of certainly short-listing Lars.

Did you like The Idiots?

Where it ascends it's masterly. It's brave, it's unforeseen, though it doesn't completely work for me but it's such an event. I think it's basically why Dogme happened. One would say perhaps The Idiots first and foremost and Celebration are why Dogme had to happen. There were one or two other films but they are the two important ones.

Would you put donkey-boy in that category as well?

Yeah, because it's an American category but Harmony would have made that film anyway. He was attracted to that brethren, which he's very open about. He was attracted to the idea because it was a game and he likes to play. So yes, I do, I am not being derogatory about the other ones but those are the ones that touched me most. I think they are more complete those films. I don't think Mifune is complete, I don't think it's close to completion in its story and execution.

It's much more gentle.

Yeah, it's gentle and I kind of like the way the film behaves. But I am not quite so drawn into the story. I feel it wanders off.

Tell me more about Dogville.

Lars certainly struck a very intense channel of productivity and clarity. I sat with him on occasions when he was writing Dogville, and I was playing, for the first time in my life, his gameboy - it was Silent Hill, which incidentally has a street called Elm Street in the middle of the game.

As in the main street of the small town Dogville?

Yeah, and the whole visual angle and look of Dogville is quite interesting. It's a world between film and theatre and video - and video games.

Wasn't the filmed version of Trevor Nunn's RSC production of Nicholas Nickleby a big influence?

Absolutely.

Did you look at that?

No, I try not to look at anything. I try to look at the face in front of me. Generally with the directors, well, with Thomas and I, we tend to talk about references, look at a bit but it gets so digressed and fluffy after the first two scenes that we start talking about something else - puddings, women, whatever. I tend to look at the face, look at the eyes, look at the script of course and hear the words and look at the person in front of me and hear them, that's the strongest potion for me to find my line in. Obviously there are inspirations but if you just imitate or dangerously devote yourself to looking at other schools - designs or visual imagery - it will become second-hand, your work, before you even expose it. You have to be very careful. At the same time it's inevitable, you are obviously affected by other people.

Has Dogville been a success for you?

On a personal level, yes, because I didn't waltz into it but I was very glad to finally do a full project with Lars, I've known him for so long. We tried so often and I get buried every time I say no.

You were more than buried in Breaking the Waves, you were sent to hell... was that dialogue about yourself in the script or improvised?

It wasn't in the first script and then Lars asked me to go to Scotland, to the Hebrides, to research this extraordinary Wee Free church. I was looking for stories, and locations, and I got to know people. I certainly understand more now about the relationship between spiritual extremism and geographical placement. Perhaps in the eyes of their God I misbehaved in tapping information. I even dropped the batteries, while trying to change them, out of my tape recorder onto the wooden floor of a church - in the middle of a service. But I don't think I abused them. There was a specific story about a burial where these ministers were sending this character, whose only just died, whose barely cold, sending him into this hole, this bottomless pit and saying "you can't get there quick enough mate and nor can your family, so lets get this over with and go to the pub," that was basically the climax of the story. I felt it was such an important image and story for Lars and I went back with a lot of other things and miles of pictures and research. But this one story had to go straight into the script and the truth of the matter is that his way of thanking, he's not one for crediting you on the script, he is not good at that at all, but he had to do something. So he kind of asked me if I would accept a name code. I thought it would be like Tone or Marshal or Anton and he came out with this explicit dialogue for Emily (Watson) and Stellan (Skarsgaard), "Anthony Dod Mantle you are a sinner, you've always been a sinner, you deserve your place in hell.". It's really funny. It's a kind of token of friendship. And then in Dancer in the Dark I am the Lord Chief Justice who sends Bjork to her death, which could be conceived as a complement or punishment, whatever, he felt I was going up in the world then. Now, because I am working with him I'm excused.

You obviously have a very close relationship.

We have a lot fun and I know him very well, he is a good friend. And he is very wise and very trusting, very sensual, eccentric and very artistic. He's a very gifted man - a rare, rare, bird. There are not many of them. I love sharing my life with people like that. It kind of helps you forward. It brings out things in yourself that you maybe weren't altogether aware of. It encourages you to do things that you maybe wouldn't do. It's so important to me. And that is true of all the directors I work with.

You shot Dogville on HD. How did that work out?

I shot on HD as you know and I treated that, I graded that real time - as it's called - with my friend Peter Yourse in Copenhagen, for about 3 or 4 weeks. Then I took it to France, and did the rest of the printing work on film with a very talented man called Fabien at Éclair.

How do you feel about the final look of the film?

Dogville is the example of a film which is exactly how I thought it was going to be, but I did expect Lars to perhaps allow me to push the texture more. It's actually a very fine and gentle rendition of the lighting set ups we had, which we planned very carefully beforehand as it all takes place on one set. And it doesn't look like film, it doesn't look like video, it just looks like what it is, something in between. I would have wanted to give it more texture and pushed the colours but he felt he wanted to be loyal to the story and the original production design, just to be modest with it, and let the actors come forward - which is very much his philosophy about Dogville.

Tell me a little bit about It's All About Love.

It's a love story shot on Super 35mm, it's not a film that holds you by the hand, but it's very close to our hearts, Thomas and I, both of us. We really are very close to that film.

And you worked on film for that?

Yeah, absolutely and my kind of inspirations were the Technicolor period, the classic, the epic - I wanted to boost certain colours. I knew very much what I wanted to do there with the designer, who left early before we started shooting but I had control of the colours and the format is very much an attempt at a modern interpretation of an epic method. It's a suggestive story more than an explicit story and if you fall off the bandwagon early on it's very hard to get back on. If you go expecting just a kind of a poem, then I think it's a serious piece of cinema.

And you've just finished another feature with Thomas - Dear Wendy.

Lars wrote it and Thomas directed. It was shot half in Denmark and half in Germany. And it takes place again in America. As such it's a film about weapons and I used Edward Curtis' still photographs of the American Indians, from a hundred years ago, as my inspiration.

And what about Hollywood, are you avoiding them or are they avoiding you?

I would understand them wanting to avoid me, I would probably get fired after two weeks. But I do get offers, I got offered a very interesting one with the guy from Schindlers List, the Irish guy...

Liam Neeson...

Yes, about Kinsey, the guy who had the theories about sexuality, a fifties story. It was after they saw It's All About Love, I think, and they just called me and said, " five months in NY, pretty high budget." It would have been an interesting American film to do after "donkey-boy" but I was doing Millions. I could sense it was a good script, it was a good character, I like that guy Neeson, like him a lot. Maybe with the huge success of 28 Days Later in America I am going to get bombarded with offers now.

Perry would like to thank Tony Keily for commissioning this interview.